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Of Black Holes and Radio Silence

by: Elizabeth de la Vega, t r u t h o u t | Perspective

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(Photo: Jim Young / Reuters)

    A former prosecutor examines the special prosecutor debate.

    There is no doubt that sometime in 2002 - if not before - Bush administration officials and their lawyers began orchestrating a torture campaign, which they calculatedly attempted to justify through specious legal memos. They continued to abuse prisoners, and to conceal that mistreatment from Congress and the public, through at least 2008. In all of this conduct, they have committed grave crimes for which they must be held accountable. I believe this to be a national imperative of the highest order. I have pored over every available book and report about torture, disturbing as they are, and I have read the lurid facts and twisted legal reasoning laid out in the Office of Legal Counsel torture memos just released by the White House. I am increasingly outraged by the day, disgusted by years of inaction, and impatient for results. Consequently, I would like nothing more than to join with so many friends and associates whom I respect in calling for immediate appointment of a special prosecutor.

    Unfortunately, however, I can't do it. Not yet. We must have a prosecution eventually, but we are not legally required to publicly initiate it now and we should not, as justifiable as it is. I'm not concerned about political fallout. What's good or bad for either party has no legitimate place in this calculus. My sole consideration is litigation strategy: I want us to succeed. And our best hope of doing that is to unflinchingly assess - just as any lawyer would do when contemplating choices of action in a case - what we would have tomorrow if we got what we think we want today. We should obviously think twice about pursuing an intermediate goal, however satisfying it may appear, if it would be counterproductive in the long term. There are times when it's smarter to wait before taking a prosecutive step and this is one of them.

    I know that what I have to say may not be popular, but the stakes here are too high to ignore "bad facts" - i.e., those that might run counter to our position or the course we've decided to take. So, it's better, I think, for me to tell you what I know to be true about grand jury investigations and the requisites of preparing a criminal case for indictment and trial - even though you might not like to hear it. Then you can make this assessment yourselves.

    First, the bottom line: From the perspective of anyone who wants Bush and Cheney and their top aides to be held accountable for their crimes, the designation of some sort of independent prosecutor right now would be the worst possible eventuality. It's a move that has so many downsides - and holds so few real benefits - that I would be more inclined to question President Obama's motives if he appointed a special prosecutor than if he did not. There is a reason why former prosecutor Arlen Specter - a Republican senator from Pennsylvania - has voiced support for a special prosecutor, while former prosecutors Patrick Leahy and Sheldon Whitehouse - Democratic senators from Vermont and Rhode Island, respectively - would prefer a public inquiry.

    What is it? Well, for starters, there is - under currently available US law - no such thing as a truly independent prosecutor. There has not been since 1999, when the independent counsel statute expired. Accordingly, regardless of the title given this individual - and whether she were tapped from inside or outside the Justice Department - this appointee would, at a minimum, be required to follow internal DOJ policies and her delegated authority could be revoked at any time. (The regulations that authorize appointing a non-DOJ attorney as "special counsel" - found at 28 C.F.R. Part 600 et. seq - actually make possible substantially more attorney general oversight into prosecutorial decisions.)

    Under existing federal law, in other words, the notion of a special prosecutor who would be entirely free from political and institutional influence is illusory. Given that fact - and that it is ordinarily an extremely dumb, not to mention unethical, idea to announce investigations - when an administration does announce that it is naming a "special counsel" of any sort, it is largely a public-relations maneuver. The president thereby appears to be committed to the rule of law, but is, in fact, parking an extremely inconvenient problem in a remote and inaccessible lot.

    Once this happens, all who wish to avoid the issue have a ready excuse. The president can refuse to comment because there is an ongoing criminal investigation. (Remember Bush's press person, Scott McClennan?) And members of Congress from either party can look the other way, because - again - there is an ongoing criminal investigation. It's a perfect dodge.

    Certainly, an official initiation of an investigation by the Obama administration now that these latest horrifying torture memos have been released would not be devoid of real benefit. It would constitute a powerful statement to the world and I don't minimize the importance of that. But once the press conference ended, would we all give each other high-fives and move on? Of course not: It is not what we ultimately want at all. What is it we do want? There is rich disagreement about particulars, but - in broad terms, at least - I think it's fair to say that the goals are: (1) a cohesive and irrefutable public narrative of the criminal activity; (2) an opportunity for victims to be heard in an open forum; (3) and accountability for the perpetrators of these crimes, from Bush and Cheney on down.

    The naming of a special prosecutor is widely seen and often touted as a quick and almost sure-fire way to achieve these ends - as if merely by setting this train in motion, we will all arrive at the courthouse in no time, ready for trial, where the entire story will be laid out for the public to hear. Unfortunately, however, nothing could be further from the truth. The reality is that, if fulfilled, this wish would result in a painfully short-lived victory.

    If a special prosecutor were appointed today, what we would have tomorrow would be the very public initiation of a federal grand jury investigation. But that is all we would have. At the same time, however, we will have likely ensured that there will be no public congressional hearings for years to come. Potential targets or subjects who might previously have felt comfortable enough to speak publicly and further incriminate themselves will clam up. Because of the stringent secrecy rules that govern grand jury proceedings - and prosecutors' justifiable concern about violating them - information that was previously public may be transformed into secret grand jury material. (It sounds crazy, but it's true.) Victims and witnesses will be interviewed behind closed doors. And most will gladly heed the prosecution's suggestion that, while they have no obligation to keep their testimony secret, there are very good reasons to do so. So there will be no public narrative, no official opportunity for victims to describe what was done to them by the US government.

    Nor would the investigation be the shortest in the world, as has been suggested. Yes, there is overwhelming evidence in the public arena. But, ironically, that is more of a problem than a help. A sprawling investigation of any kind into multiple crimes committed by dozens of people - as this is even without the CIA agents - takes a very long time. Prosecutors must bring specific charges against named individuals, and be ready to prove those charges through admissible evidence as soon as indictments are returned. (This is in stark contrast to a civil case, where a complaint is filed and then discovery ensues.) Generally, the prosecutor can not introduce hearsay, anonymous information, speculation, non-expert opinions or unsourced documents. Evidence must be relevant to a charge and presented in an orderly fashion through live witnesses and/or documents. A prosecutor cannot just plop thousands of documents and dozens of reports and books on the counsel table, and tell the jury to have at it.

    So what would a prosecutor have to do before presenting the case for indictment? Here is a sampling of tasks that would be necessary: comb through and organize all relevant government memos, reports, emails and the like; litigate issues of classification and privilege; follow up on leads from information obtained; interview hundreds of witnesses and victims; identify each and every memorialized - or reported - statement made by witnesses or defendants; and interview those to whom the statements were made. During this process, the prosecutor would be deciding which, if any, defendants to charge and communicating extensively with attorneys. Only when all of this preliminary work is done would witnesses be called to the grand jury, which could well entail additional time-consuming litigation. This massive effort would take years and there is no guarantee that indictments against anyone - particularly higher-level defendants - would ever be returned.

    Well, if not now, then, when? Wouldn't the same interminable process just happen later? Not necessarily. Notwithstanding the public statements that the president and attorney general made in connection with the release of the memos, I find cause for optimism in their actions. No smart lawyer who secretly wanted this entire issue to disappear would have released those torture memos. From a prosecutor's point of view, the release of those memos with their authors' names in full view was pretty much the same as releasing their photographs with bloody knives in hand. The president and the attorney general may not have said much, but what they did was quietly flip the switch on a searing bright light.

    Yes, Obama's Chief of Staff, Rahm Emmanuel, has now said flatly that there will be no prosecutions of Bush officials, but the reality is that this story is far from over. As former CIA head Michael Hayden said on April 19, more by way of complaint than promise: "There will be more revelations. There will be more commissions. There will be more investigations," he said.

    This statement may be one of the few Hayden has ever made that I can agree with. The truth is that - frustrating and appalling as it is - given the amount of damning information that's been revealed, we are just starting this process. If we are to have any hope of achieving some form of justice for these criminals and their victims, we must let the horror of the conduct and the extent of culpability reveal themselves in public view. And we must facilitate a narrowing of the focus so that specific defendants and charges can be clearly identified in the minds of not just the general public, but decision-makers at the Justice Department.

    What we continue to need, in sum, are unwavering spotlights, even more civic education, and, most importantly, an irrefutable and cohesive factual narrative - comprised of direct and circumstantial evidence - that links the highest-level officials and advisers of the Bush administration, ineluctably, to specific instances and victims of torture. What we will surely have, however, if a special prosecutor is named, will be precisely the opposite: The initiation of a federal grand jury investigation right now would be roughly the equivalent of ceremoniously dumping the entire issue of torture into a black hole. There will be nothing to see and we will be listening intently to radio silence, trying to make sense of intermittent static in the form of the occasional unreliable leak. For years. There may never be any charges and we will almost certainly never have the unimpeachable historical narrative that we need.

    Caution and complexity don't sell very well on cable, I know. So you might not hear it there, but we can wait a while for a prosecutor and - if we want to succeed - we should: I don't think any of these guys presents a flight risk and we need to keep this road to accountability well-lit and noisy.

    --------

    Elizabeth de la Vega is a former federal prosecutor with more than 20 years of experience. During her tenure, she was a member of the Organized Crime Strike Force and chief of the San Jose Branch of the US attorney's office for the Northern District of California. Her pieces have appeared in a variety of print and online publications including Truthout, TomDispatch.com, The Nation, The Los Angeles Times, Salon, Mother Jones and The Christian Science Monitor. The author of "United States v. George W. Bush et al," she may be contacted at ElizabethdelaVega@Verizon.net or through Speakers Clearinghouse.

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Comments

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Torture, concentration

Torture, concentration camps, presidential death squads, warrant-less spying, suspension of habeas corpus, even aggressive war -- "the supreme international crime" according to the judges at Nuremberg. And the reaction of Ms. Vega? Hey, no crimes here, boys and girls!

Oh, M'Lady!!

Oh, M'Lady!! Congratulations and thank you!! I retract all my previous anger hurled at both sides - now I am just angry at the perps. Ms. de la Vega reminds me of Zorro swinging on curtains he then pulls down to let the light in. I hope she keeps reading up on and researching the legal steps that will land these macro-criminals in jail, as she has done up to now so that she can be that Special Prosecutor! I promise to tape the entire event - her putting Bush and fellow gang members in jail - for her so that she can proudly tell her grandchildren about swinging on curtains to let the light in s0 that the evil ones burn up from the exposure...

Smart lawyer, wants justice

Smart lawyer, wants justice for Bush&co. These guys are BIG fish, and they have BIG friends, and landing them is going to be very, very difficult. I would rather wait 10 years to hear the judge say "guilty" than to risk letting them get away in the confusion of a narrow investigation. Set ALL the hooks, DEEP, and then reel them in slowly. Then, lets have a fish fry.

You criticize a formal

You criticize a formal investigation now, but you offer little in return. In trying to extract your counterproposal, I am left with this: "What we continue to need, in sum, are unwavering spotlights, even more civic education, and, most importantly, an irrefutable and cohesive factual narrative" This sounds pretty wishy washy to me. Just how would you propose that this be managed and overseen. Should we just sit back and "let it happen"? Should we rely on Mr. Hayden's assurances-- the same Mr. Hayden that just joined the "Chertoff Group" private security firm (now that sounds like an organization concerned with the protection of American civil liberties!) The truth of the matter Elizabeth, is that this administration has just told us that it has no interest in taking this any further. And so? We should just ... wait? I don't get it. Illuminate me.

This is an excellent

This is an excellent article. I think we should nominate Ms. de la Vega to be the Special Prosecutor. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. de la Vega.

Thank you, Ms. de la Vega. I have been saying here and other sites, as well as to family and friends, to be patient. Yes, I would love to see all these criminals behind bars, preferably at Gitmo under the same conditions as the current residents there, but I also understand that lawyers need to build irrefutable cases. The release of these documents not only keeps the heat on the villains, but also gets enough information into the public forum to close doors of escape from the US. Note the Spanish investigation and the EU effect, or the Canadian efforts. This crime lasted for over 7 years and it will take a while to bring it to justice, but I have no doubt that justice will be served as long as the DOJ is given the time to build the case. So be patient - I truly believe this will happen, just not tomorrow.

So far, most of you seem not

So far, most of you seem not to be familiar with Elizabeth de la Vega (at least that is what your comments suggest to me). de la Vega has long, long written on the crimes of the Bush administration (both articles and a book) and on the means to prosecute them. She has a long legal track record herself and knows what she is speaking about. This is always someone to listen to because she speaks from knowledge of the field, not to mention that she is very sharp.

Punishment for these crimes

Punishment for these crimes is not needed. Anyone who has participated in the inhuman treatment of any other person for any reason will be judged at the time of their own death, by themselves, before the Eternal Court whose proof and justice is indisputable. Think about it, would you want to be facing that Karma for what might last for thousands of years over many subsequent lifetimes. Do not be concerned about this. Each of us will suffer the consequences of what ever negative actions we have committed towards any other person. That applies to me, to you, to anyone anywhere. I think we have a job to do for our own self to ask forgiveness for any wrongs we have ever committed. That applies to the Bush administration and any policies they might have used, for any reason against anyone in an unjust manner. I certainly would not want to be facing that scale of justice. Just be thankful if you are not as well.

Thank you for elucidating

Thank you for elucidating these procedural facts. Much of law is counter intuitive I know. I am willing to be patient if I can see progress toward finding bush and co. guilty and appropriately punished.

Hi Elizabeth, Thank you for

Hi Elizabeth, Thank you for the explanation. I have been puzzled by the calls by Leahy and Whitehouse for a truth commission and the criticism that has engendered by those who believe a special prosecutor is what is needed.

Ms. de la Vega presents a

Ms. de la Vega presents a compelling argument in favor of delaying legal action on the torture issue in order to get it done legally and successfully. This ossue should be kept in the spotlight in order to remind the American public that torture is not the American way of doing things, and that the Geneva Convention has been violated by the Bush Administration in order to further its own agenda.

There will be a John Dean

There will be a John Dean out there when we have a willing Congress. Right now there are too many running scared in Congress because of their own guilt. There must be no inquiry where the criminals are given a free pass to not ever be prosecuted; that would not be justice in any way, and I am to understand that that is exactly what Leahy's public inquiry would entail, other than that, public inquiry is a good thing. I am for gathering evidence and preparing but not to the extent that the statute of limitations runs out so that there can be no prosecution at all. That certainly would not be justice. We still have some honorable and honest legislators in Congress with upstanding character and somehow these honorable legislators will be conscientious enough that they will keep prosecution on the table. Prosecution of these criminals, one and all, must be kept on the table. It is ridiculous to take justice for criminal behavior off the table, just because the crimes were in Congress or with the Executive, Investigative or Judicial Branches, as these are grave injustices that have been perpetrated by our government.

Ms. De la Vega has a long

Ms. De la Vega has a long history of writing with excellent sense and impeccable analysis. I have never known her to say anything stupid. This argument for patience is very compelling, and I think the best strategy may well be to let events unfold. I have always been a proponent of the "bright spotlight" theory, and have seen it work through the actions of groups like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Corruption loathes the light. And America needs to see what will be revealed.

A persuasive argument. Let

A persuasive argument. Let more light shine!

Thank you Ms. de la Vega.

Thank you Ms. de la Vega. Remember folks, it took thiry years for Pinochet to be brought to justice. Her experience and understanding of the legal process are far more penetrating than most. The important thing is that these miscreants be confronted, sooner would be better but not if sooner blunts and ameliorates the final verdict.

DW: Did you hear Obama

DW: Did you hear Obama issue a pardon? No, you didn't. It shouldn't be surprising that a president makes public comments while planning something entirely different. Does the magician want you to focus on the real (and subtle) action, or to be distracted by the glitz and wand-waving? Patience is what is called for here. And Bolduc: Did you read the article? De la Vega is absolutely clear - these people are criminals of the first degree. Do we want them tried, convicted, and incarcerated, or do we just want to wag our fingers at them and call them names so we can feel virtuous?

Now, I finally get it. When

Now, I finally get it. When you're not familiar with the way the law works in different situations (I'm not) you sure misunderstand a lot of things. Thank you for your clear explanation, Ms. de la Vega. I'll try to be patient.

bolduc, you really dont get

bolduc, you really dont get it. Gather ALL THE EVIDENCE BEFORE YOU ACCUSE. Right now there is no time to bother with prosecuting less then 500 people. Net effect 500 jail imates more. The country has to pay attention to the needs of millions of citizens. Not priotizing the problems would be a mistake right now. Give Obama Time for the correct response...

Thank you, Ms. de la Vega

Thank you, Ms. de la Vega for this very educational essay. I sincerely appreciate the lesson! My concern re: the proposed "truth commissions" is the possibility that some of the guilty will require guarantees of immunity from prosecution in exchange for their truthful testimony (I'm sure their lawyers will more or less demand it.) and that at the end of the day, they'd walk, just like Ollie North and Poindexter. I get the procedural labyrinth that is ahead, and am willing to be patient (which is NOT my long-suit!), but I don't think I have 30 years to wait, which is how long it took to actually go after Pinochet -- I'm already over 70! I appreciate the need for a prosecutor to "get it right" before going public, so I hope the bright lights focused so far will only increase in number and intensity over whatever time I have left, and move the process toward our shared goal of holding the perps accountable, no matter how high in the hierarchy the strand of guilt extends.

I wonder Ms Vega, even after

I wonder Ms Vega, even after reading your attempt to persuade.... if you or President Obama realizes that through the mere passage of time, that he, of all people, is basically announcing to the entire Planet that America is indeed a Nation where some are truly and actually above the Law and America IS NOT a Nation of Laws, but rather, a Nation where Some Men can get away with anything and not be touched by the Law... You talk of 'Political Fallout'.... I think of the same term but in a different light... I watch the President from overseas every chance I get. I see and hear a Man attempting to Change the Face and Modus Operandi of America which the rest of the World sees and deals with. So far, with the exception of NOT proceeding with investigations and prosecutions of ANY and ALL ILLEGAL DOINGS by ANY or ALL BuShies, I am with him... I STRONGLY feel it is in our best National Interest and in the best interest of President Obama's efforts to show the World who and what WE America are truly all about to also begin by demonstrating to the world that NO ONE IS ABOVE OUR LAWS and that even if a bunch of Evil Doers do come to briefly control the reins of US Power, they WILL MOST CERTAINLY BE HELD TO ACCOUNT and SOONER RATHER THAN LATER...

what I am hearing is we have

what I am hearing is we have an imperfect DOJ. necessary steps will amount to generational change and some of us will pass away before we see the results of DOJ reform. it is a pity that all of the wisdom above amounts to an attempt to eschew what the People of this nation need: the return of Justice herself. spiritual cleansing is necessary here and no amount of rhetoric equates to action. i appreciate the delicate nature of this situation, but Justice has been locked in her tower for a long time and, grieving, awaits her champions...

This article, and other

This article, and other writings of the eminent lawyer Elisabeth de la Vega, should be made part of the curriculum of every good law school.

Interesting perspective but

Interesting perspective but idealistic. Why believe that waiting will result in a freeflow of information and not just more delays and obfuscation? The real issue here is that many democrats are complicit in the decion totorture captives and extradition decisions. That is why no one is moving in any legitimate direction because senior dems will and should also be indicted.

Nice to read what I have

Nice to read what I have been saying (though in a much improved style and knowledge) about the need to construct a close to iron-clad case as legally possible. WHEN we go after the criminals, at all levels whoever they are, we have got to make the accusations of the prosecution STICK! Can't wait to see those guys who besmirched the reputation of the U.S. and cast its constitution into the dust bin along with all regard for decency and humanity held up to public ippobrium. Even if they get suspended sentences they will have been Charged and found....Whatever...fairly!

Simple. Investigate and

Simple. Investigate and prosecute if warranted. Make the information public and transparent. Funny, but I remember back a few years when this nation claimed a high moral standing in the world as a Nation of Laws and a country that followed a Constitution, even when issues were subject to major DISCUSSIONS and open-minded interpretation. Let's get the politics OUT of this and get the investigators involved, actively and accountably.

How go from "narrative" to

How go from "narrative" to prosecution? Not clear to me how Ms. de la Vega gets us from the "narrative" story line, to prosecution of the torturers, the memo writers and the executive branch at the top - in other words, justice.

They are not flight risks

They are not flight risks indeed. They are at risk anywhere outside their tight circles. This is a consequence for men accustomed to indulging their whims and to engaging in photo ops with their powerful peers in the world. It is important to get information in the public domain, periodically, to keep pressure on and to keep powerful people conscious of the light. A special prosecutor is an expensive pose-e-cutor, no matter who s/he is. This is not about lawyers and special judges and spending lots of money to spin things certain ways. This is about exposing anaerobic compost to light and air to make better, safer, soil. People can experience the shame and nausea and know that these things get out. These deeds cannot be hidden in the bowels of marble buildings until the perps die. Maybe Bush and Cheney don't watch TV, but they will have friends and family who do. They cannot escape what they have done. Where would they fly to? The Pearly Gates await, wherever they go in the meantime.

Thanks. I had posted

Thanks. I had posted something about this elsewhere yesterday saying that President Obama would not have released the memos if he had not intended they be used. Obama, after all, has a brilliant legal mind with long experience designing legal strategy in civil rights cases. Remember that he also designed the strategy for getting elected. I recall a recent interview with Speaker of the House Pelosi. She discussed the situation where she and other minority Democratic senators on a committee, sworn to absolute secrecy, were frustrated and angry that they knew about the illegalities of the Bush administration and were totally barred under penalty of revealing state secrets, prosecution and imprisonment from telling anyone including aides in their own offices. Cheney and others have proudly boasted of how the Democrats were in league when there was no such thing.

"This massive effort would

"This massive effort would take years and there is no guarantee that indictments against anyone - particularly higher-level defendants - would ever be returned. " The key sentence in the article as to why prosecution will NEVER happen.

Quote:" What we continue to

Quote:" What we continue to need, in sum, are unwavering spotlights, even more civic education, and, most importantly, an irrefutable and cohesive factual narrative" And how is this scenario to occur? Who will contrive this 'narrative?' Are we to wait until all participants write their autobiographies? And academics nitpick them over for conflicting details? Excuse me; but laws have been broken. There is no doubt of this. The Constitution has been eviscerated. Art I Sec 8 has been bypassed. Art I Sec 9 has been obliterated. Art II Sec 4 makes high crimes and misdemeanors grounds for impeachment; Art VI makes treaties 'the supreme law of the land; has been violated over and over. The Bill of Rights has been ridden down over and bver. For just one esample: V - "No person...shall be compelled...to be a witness against himself..." I respect Ms. de la Vega; and no doubt her perceptions of legal difficulties to be surmounted are sound... but this essay is of no real use whatever.

Congratulations, Eliz, your

Congratulations, Eliz, your narrative is sensible and convincing. I, however, am more concerned with what are the statute of limitations on this mess that was created in the last administration. I am seeing, at the very least, that our gov't broke the Geneva Conventions, that we handled prisoners in the same ways that we convicted others for after WWII, that many people at the top of our gov't are war criminals. And I am seeing a long haul ahead and time slipping away. I am seeing a world hoping we will mend our ways, but not convinced until we make it right with prosecutions. I also see our government as out of balance in that our Congress ceded many of their rights and responsibilities to the Executive Branch. No longer are our checks and balances working as they should. I even see a relatively new President, one who is a Constitutional Law Professor and should know better, purported to make decisions that are truly not his to make. The Attorney General may serve at the pleasure of the President, but then the President is supposed to butt out! He does not make the decisions about who to prosecute, etc. It is the purview of the Attorney General, and as a matter of fact, we got into this mess because the line that delineates these and other governmental roles became too blurred. I want thing back the way the Constitution had them before the Bush administration. Congress better step up and do their homework and take their responsibilities back, or we're fried.

But what about the statute

But what about the statute of limitations? If this is dragged out, won't the guilty parties get a free pass because time has run out?

The result I want to see,

The result I want to see, however it comes, is that future would-be mass-murderers and torturers will desist from these behaviors. The best way to ensure this, in my opinion, is to make sure the present ones pay for their crimes against humanity and The Constitution. Use their own arguments against them and make examples of them to help prevent future crimes.

Let's publish the names (and

Let's publish the names (and their potentially indictable offenses) so that we know who ALL of them are (and how they may be complicit). Shed the light NOW so that we can form our own opinions ... before the government of the US poses its special interpretation of history.

I read many of the above

I read many of the above comments concerning the statute of limitations associated with the prosecution of war crimes in the US and decided to find out whether or not the US was a signatory to the "Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity." Much to my surprise I found out that we are NOT a signatory to this convention. This brings up another question which I find is not so easy to answer. What IS the statute of limitations on prosecuting war crimes in the US? Ten years? Could someone here address this question with authority for those of us who are interested in it?

For some time now, I've been

For some time now, I've been thinking that the only way any of this legal action is going to happen is, if the evidence revealed gains a gravitational field of it's own that will be irresistible, much like a black hole. I've been thinking about this analogy for quite sometime, especially when friends would tell me it's hopeless, and these criminals will never see trial. And now Elizabeth de la Vega uses that term, but to describe what will happen if a special prosecutor is appointed too early...and the entire issue disappears from view as the entire thing goes down a black hole out of which it is unlikely ever to return. Very good point. I like my analogy to the black hole...which I think is just as valid, but from the opposite side of the argument. Without realizing it, I stumbled on Ms de la Vega's logic, which is to let the evidence present itself over and over again in a public forum. If this happens, my vision of the legal black hole is that it will form of the weight of evidence...and that weighted evidence will make it virtually impossible to avoid, and extremely difficult politically to deny. And this is exactly what appears to be happening now...as the hideous torture memos are revealed, and the Republican backlash becomes more strident with each new day. Their stridency on the issue of torture is revealing their true, nihilist nature...and that should be their undoing! Thank you Elizabeth for you insightful article!

To avoid prosecution of

To avoid prosecution of torture - for any reason - is to admit that we no longer have a democracy capable of trying cases in a court of law. If so, it is time for a Constitutional Convention, and re-write the Constitution that no longer works. The statute of limitations for murder (and some of the torture victims did expire) is unlimited. But that doesn't mean wait until all evidence and all caring has disappeared. And it will: between our politically correct history textbooks and the will to shred evidence, it will all go away. And democracy will go away. Who will ever again trust in our court system to bring justice?

Remember way back when?

Remember way back when? During the candidate's debates Dennis Kucinich held high in his hand a copy of the US Constitution and exhorted the impeachment of both Cheney and Bush. Way back then. Mr. Kucinich may not have all the skills or mettle to be President however we who claim in some form to be willing to work for the legacy of the US would do well to learn from his conviction of values and passion for the United States.

Thank you to Ms Vega and

Thank you to Ms Vega and thank yo to the person who in a comment elsewhere, suggested that reader read ms Vega's essay. I had asked previously why we could not as vigorously pursse torturers as we, The US that is, pursued Bill Clinton for lying about a purely personal matter. Ms Vega has explained something I forgot. After the excesses of Ken STarr the Special prosecutor legislation was recinded.

I'll bet the farm and

I'll bet the farm and everything else I own that we will NEVER EVER see Bu$h, Cheney or anyone of their criminal gang stand trial for their crimes and high treason. It simply won't happen! That I'm absolutely sure of and it puts to rest any feeble notion of the US of A as a nation of laws ...

Carl Forsberg writes:

Carl Forsberg writes: "Punishment for these crimes is not needed. Anyone who has participated in the inhuman treatment of any other person for any reason will be judged at the time of their own death, by themselves, before the Eternal Court whose proof and justice is indisputable. Think about it, would you want to be facing that Karma for what might last for thousands of years over many subsequent lifetimes." That's a religious viewpoint that I largely share. Some caveats however: 1) Religious viewpoints have little bearing on public discussion of legal options in what is, after all (despite Republican efforts to change this) a *secular* democracy. 2) I support the opportunity for any sentient being to make amends and repent, including the perps in this case thereby repairing some part of the truly heinous karma they have accumulated. "Earthly" punishment provides one such opportunity, if used well. 3) Non-religious people have every right to demand accountability on this Earth and in this lifetime. My personal religious views have no bearing on that, nor should they. 4) Another goal of punishment for crimes is deterrence of future similar actions by others. This prevents suffering by the victims, and ultimately helps prevent accumulation of negative "karma" by the putative perps themselves. I view this as a good thing. Ultimately I would prefer some kind of "restorative justice" model for resolving this whole thing. Failing that, prosecution and punishment benefits society and the victims, and even (on a "karmic" level) actual , and prospective, perps.

Ms. Vega, Your point (we

Ms. Vega, Your point (we have to wait for better preparation for effective prosecution) is probably right, but we in the hinterlands cannot distinguish the (hidden) preparation of prosecution from eternal deferral of any action. It just looks like nothing is happening. Publication of the torture-justifying memos may be an indication that something is happening, but may also be an accident (however unfortunate to the writers of these memos, and good for us). So, what should we do? Wait, and perhaps be disappointed after a year when nothing happens? (And we will hear then, it is all so long ago, witnesses have disappeared... so cannot do anything about it any more.) The administration needs to indicate somehow, and believably, that indeed there is some action on prosecution. Perhaps impeaching Bybee would be a start (for Congress, though, it still gives no indication of DOJ/Administration action.)