Allowing Israel to investigate itself is akin to allowing an alleged murderer to ask his own family to decide his guilt or innocence.

It's a complete farce that makes a complete mockery of justice and of democracy.

This travesty of justice should be outlawed.

Although this should hardly come as a surprise, it still shocks me to read about US support when the rest of the world has awakened to Israel's interests. I highly recomment the following article in the New York Times, "Chosen but not Special", for a profound and honest look at the (human heart) world condition.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/opinion/06chabon.html?pagewanted=2&src=tptw

A deep and wide boycott of Israeli products, manufactured goods, anything they export including cultural and fashion stuff, must be emphatically practiced, not with hatred but firmly. This same boycott must also be used against the U.S. and its banking empire, food poisoning empire, dirty manufacturing, and all the lies perpetrated in support of the petroleum industry.

@ 16:34 I'm not boycotting Israel. I think the boycott is stupid. If you're concerned about the petroleum industry, you should be looking the Arab world, not to mention U.K. and BRITISH petroleum.

As far as the blockade is concerned, why are people supporting a full end to the blockade, when that would mean military supplies into Gaza and from places like Iran ?

I certainly think humanitarian goods should go in, but I don't see why it makes a difference whether or not they go in by water or land.

Of course, not one article in the "progressive" press ever has an intelligent discussion of these issues.

Likely because they are promoting war, not peace, and not promoting a means by which the Palestinians can actually establish and build a peaceful and productive country.

16:36:

Tired of the Arab world? The food? The music? The dress? The religion? The politics? Why not make a point in clear English, bring up arguments in favor of your position--rather than express your prejudice? Is education lacking--you are too timid to do that? That can be fixed. Try reading writers on both sides, turning off the TV, talking to real people. You would be surprised what you might learn.

Say, lets have BP investigate its role in the destruction of the Gulf of Mexico. Uh huh.

But seriously, ever since Great Britain and the U.N. pulled Israel out of their collective asses in 1947 by partitioning Palestine --over the objections of the Arab leaders-- there has been nothing but strife in that area.

Who would expect anything less? The residents of Palestine had the "state" of Israel stuffed down their throats. The only way Israel is able to be the big swinging dick in the region is because it receives massive aid from the U.S.
(Google: U.S. foreign aid to Israel) in return for being the proxy of the U.S. in the Middle East.

The Arabs have been unjustly screwed for 63 years. Put yourselves in their shoes.

I think the Arab world, which is quite large, essentially wants to take over, impose their religion, their sexism, their repressive mores. The Palestinians are a means by which they can accomplish these ends; if they weren't, they would help them more, rather than use them to instigate people against a tiny nation amidst that region, i.e. Israel.

I used to have more respect for the u.n. Now I think they show a lot of historical carry-over from the fascism that rose in that area, and in alliance with the Arab world, along with that smug superiority that gave them the notion they could create in country for the people they didn't want in such-and-such a place, and then, later on, when it served their selfish whims, dismantle it. Because after all, they're white Europeans.

It is kind of like these disgraceful parents you see who adopt children and then think, after a period of time, well, they don't really like the product they bought, and ergo, they wish to give the child back.

But the child is a human being.

And things just don't work that way, Helen and Co.

Egypt perhaps could give the Palestinians more land, in conjunction with some kind of financial settlement. The Palestinians, for their part, should declare their recognition of the State of Israel, and their commitment to laying down arms against their neighbor and living side-by-side in peace.

I'm also reminded of the book "Getting To Yes." People have to learn to state very specifically what it is that they are negotiating for, and want.

And take it from there. I do see the Israelis operating on that communicative level, but I do not see the Palestinians doing so, if only because their P.R. people are such idiots, and believe they can really win this battle by promoting antisemitism and hatred.

" Jews have often lived amicably with Christians and Muslims in many places around the world. Certainly, today, most Jews in the US and many other lands live freely, with virtually full acceptance and no discrimination."

This is such a smug and superior statement; can the writer tell why? I bet not. He's too smug and superior.

I don't like fascists. That applies to Netanyahu.
It also applies to Hamas.
The criticism of the attack on the Turkish ship far outstrips the criticism of the constant bombardment of
Israeli territory on the part of Hamas.
Furthermore "if you live in a glasshouse you should not throw stones.
The US is constantly at war. Our killings far exceed what the IDF has done, and we the people are tolerating that. We are setting a poor example.

Israel "has the institutions and certainly the capability to conduct a credible, impartial and transparent investigation," Crowley said.

All they lack is the integrity.

Shame on the US for not upholding the rules on the settlements. Israel is dead wrong. And don't talk to me about "rocket attacks"--they haven't hit anything in seven years. Maybe Israel is shooting them themselves....

The zionist historical narrative is a pile of shinola. A modicum of knowledge of history (which most Americans certainly lack) would be sufficient to show that fact.

*LIKE ANYONE ELSE* Jews have had their ups and downs and have suffered persecutions from time to time. The idea that they were the only ones to suffer reversals or to be singled out for unfair persecutions or that their entire existence as a people has been an uninterrupted tale of woe is a psychotic tantarum.

But woe to her who tries to present a balanced picture. If you say, for example, that Jews weren't always persecuted, you are met with an outraged non sequitur, like "Are you DENYING that six million Jews were GASSED...!!?!!!"

At that point the discussion get derailed because yes, it is not true that six millions were "gassed" but one's original point was not to deny the existence of persecution and/or genocide but only to affirm that that that's not all there was... At which point there follows a further non-sequitur, "Are you saying perscution is not IMPORTANT...?

And so on and so forth until people finally get disgusted and just could no longer give a damn.
Great PR Bibi.

I'm really sick and tired of the Arab world too.

If Nothing Yahoo wants credibility to his investigation, it should be performed by the UN. Otherwise, we will get the same lies we have been since the inception of Zionist state, a state founded on lies. It was founded by the brutish British elite and its allies to get rid of the European gypsies by giving them the land of Palestinians who were living there since over 2,000 years ago. Now the Zionist leaders are doing worse things to the people whose land is usurped than what Hitler did to the Jews. I love Jews. There are world famous and super humanitarians among them but Zionists and in particular the military elite such as NOTHING YAHOO gives me the creeps. We are in a different world now. No amount of abuse will cover the lies from the people. Mr. Yahoo needs to learn human traits and deal with the Palestinians as humans. Otherwise, we should arm the Palestinians to duke it out on a leveled battle field. May the best men win!

...

Frankly, though I don't agree with how the flotilla was handled, I think I understand in a way their position, and I'm surprised if any of the activists didn't anticipate that they were stepping potentially in exactly that kind of situation. And especially coming from Turkey with hundreds of people on a boat. Not exactly a place where they've been singing "We shall overcome." Clearly their knowing intention was to get killed so people would be horrified by how horrible Israel was.

And Israel said, go ahead ...

...
The Canadian activist who was interviewed - the most credible one IMO - because his description of events was so like an engineer -- said he expected to go through. He seemed well-intentioned, IMV, but to be frank, I was a bit stunned at such naivity. And especially since they all know how brutal the Israelis are.

Clearly the Irish knew better. Which is why Gandhi and King used very committed techniques of non-violence -- apart from the spiritual reasons. Because they understood their position of power relative to those they were challenging.

I also have to wonder why people think that they have a right to step into these violent conflicts in this one area of the world without violent consequences, while they would never - for example, say - presume as much by marching into Somalia or Afghanistan demanding certain things for the people there -- or say, Saudi Arabia -- on behalf of women having the right to vote or get medical care without permission from a male relative.

While I haven't really agreed with the overall tact the present Israeli administration is taking, the degree to which 'the left' is obsessed with this one conflict at the expense of all others, makes me reconsider my position.

I might say, well, I'd expect Israel to behave better than Hamas, but more and more, from the sound of the internet dialogue, I'm no longer sure that is the case.

The G a z a n t r a t i o n camp ia reckless revenge for both the holocaust itself and the mandating of a contrived biblical Jewish repatriation qua "the holy land" for a European and western hemisphere solution. The self-imposed Jewish exile outside of europe would have been Hitler's second choice. Deep self examination of the post war collective psyche which "flipped" from victim to perpetrator in Israeli society and government must be pursued....
Technonymous

@ 21:25 "The land of the Free and home of the Brave has become Jew.S.A." - you were never part of the land of the free and the home of the brave, as indicated by your post. You're just a sniveling, dumb, racist coward who is a disgrace to this nation and doesn't even know what makes this nation great. And it is exactly people like yourself whom the left never speaks up to, on this issue, that cause me to think men like Netanyahu have a reason to act the way they do.

US Congress is treason.

@ "Clearly the Irish knew better. Which is why Gandhi and King used very committed techniques of non-violence -- apart from the spiritual reasons. Because they understood their position of power relative to those they were challenging."

Their greatest weapon was non-violence.

Each time the Palestinian supporters use violence or hate, in deed or word and speech, they help to defeat their own cause, as do the people who claim to be supporting them.

It stands to reason, too, that if you're going into a situation where you expect violence -- which I think the Turks did -- then you would deliberately choose to actively demonstrate your commitment to non-violence, and so that it was unequivocably clear where you were coming from and what you wished to achieve.

Any people who are trying to overcome great odds towards ends that are truly just - and if those ends are truly just -- inevitably recognize that their cause, by virtue of being virtuous and stronger -- must show greater self-restraint and self-discipline, ITO a commitment to peaceful relations.

I really think, at this point, though I am not familiar with the conflict in that area, that the Palestinians will not succeed in what some are saying they are trying to succeed at, unless they understand and adopt these methods.

@ 22;10, clearly the U.N. is antisemitic given that posture. Thank you for sharing that information.

I second that comment. When people say, "I'm tired of the Arab world,"people at the Pentagon, CIA etc.,have gotten the correct outcome. They work hard to change perceptions, so they reinforce ' existing prejudice against the Middle East' by slanting news and placing certain articles so they feature prominently, on top of all the pundits like Rush. Which aspects of the Arab world is the writer tired of? Just remember all those taxpayer dollars are being spent to perpetuate the prejudice against Arabs. The disinfo machine has us living in an Alice in Wonderland reality and many Americans have acquiesced to the situation.

@23:46 I believe you are incorrect in asserting that Gandhi and King stated that violence was justified in some situations. King, for example, stated:

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. ... Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."

continued

continued

On the other hand, I would think it likely that Mandela, as a Marxist, would believe that violence is not necessarily justified, but that it's inevitable in certain conflicts .. but tactically effective ? Well, you see in South Africa, how far oppression went, hte magnitude of what was happening, and yet, Mandela still chose non-violence as the most effective means, though I would not say he was entirely from the side place as Gandhi and King, as much of a giant as he was, too.

King, I believe, did use the term "weapon" insofar as non-violence was concerned, and tactic and strategy was what I was referring to, although I guess I didn't communicate that point clearly enough.

I did not mean to imply that it was legitimate what happened to people on the MM, or that they "deserved this." I do question their strategy, in terms of both short and long-term goals, and how their behavior posed a risk to others on the boat, as well.

Are you involved in a cause where there is no dissent and everyone must agree you all were great and they all were the bad guys? Too bad, I would think the Palestinians deserve much more.

I would have thought that my points could have been taken in the best possible as to where I am coming from, and especially given the fact, that I was discussing non-violent resistance.

But I guess not ...

@ 00:48, show me where in my statement I said I was tired of the Arab world.. Hm? Though you surely are tired of the Israeli one, and I can understand why many people would be tired of the Arab one.

Consider this point:

If a given individual is willing to (a) strap a bomb to their body and blow themselves up in order to step closer to (b) a stated goal

(let's take a 3 acre plot of land as a specific example)

or

a given individual is willing to (a) attack an Israeli soldier and risk being shot and killed in order to (b) reach a stated goal (same example)

then ..

why not just go forth non-violently ?

Strategically, it makes much more sense and is very highly more effective.

You'll either be shot or won't be, but either way, you win the p.r. battle, and you get closer to your goal.

You cannot get further from your goal with this method.

If the Israelis win the p.r. battle too, for example, by not responding violently, then you are both that much closer to success.

If anyone out there is listening, I hope you will think about that.

This is a travesty. To prove that it isn't... release the tapes, unedited.

...But because Israel is supposedly the white "good guys", and the Muslims are supposedly the dark skinned "heathens" (ignoring, of course, the heathen, mass-murderous tactics of the Israeli government and military), the "knight in shining armor" white men and women on "white horses" who oppress, mass murder and mass imprison are supported, and the oppressed are are allowed to be oppressed.

So, enough of the arguments for how the oppressed should just be non-violent while the hugely powerful steamroller is crushing them to death, and not fight back or defend themselves. That is a ridiculous argument. You would fight back and defend yourselves, and the Muslim oppressed of the Middle East have every right to fight back and defend themselves as well.

Vast military might, imperialistic "superiority" and conquering "hutzpa" do not make mass-murderous repression and oppression okay, or give them the imprimatur of "righteousness", particularly when the conquering imperialistic power and its military might use far disproportionate force that leaves the oppressed almost completely defenseless like the power of the Israeli government and military does.

There is no rational defense for the crushing oppression and repression of any overwhelming government force today, especially in light of the fact that humankind is supposedly much more civilized in this day and age. Thus, the rationalizations for continuing this uncivilized violence that is the largest level of unmitigated violence in the entire history of the world, are completely unconscionable and indefensible, and it must stop.

the israeli investigation will be a whitewash. but they have been trained well ("we have met the enemy and he is us").

With people like S Wolf Britain out there, I can see why Israelis voted for Netanyahu.

Do not agree w/ everything the Isrealis do, but having said that, what purpose would there be left for Ira Chernmus's hate, who could he then attack? I do wonder how well he would survive in a purely muslim world? Has he ever been there & lived for a while.Where you are either muslime or put to death.Period.How can the muslims stand by & not bring their brothers & sisters home to stop the suffering?& IraChermus is trying to promote this as a better??

Here is what Ghandi had to say about Zionism: Gandhi on the Palestine conflict - 1938
"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in "A Land of Two Peoples" ed. Mendes-Flohr.

Mr.Ira Chernus has a long track of record against Israel, a quick search on Google will prove it.
The use of the word lie close to the word Israel is always deranging as it reenforces the antisemitic view that nothing happened during World War II and the Shoah of 6 millions jews did not exist.
Mr.Chernus forgot that in any country when you have to deal with police or army, when you are asked to pull over, the best things is to keep cool and not insulting or assaulting or attacking an officer.
In US if you are doing something "funny" with something in your hand while controlled by police you can be shooted withourt warning.
This is unfortunately what's happen on ONE boat (among 9 of the flottilla). People on this boat were not pacifist but hamas proxy activist. They attacked israelis soldiers. They have been killed. Full stop.
Regarding Israel democracy and transparency, this is the one of the few countries who put in court and in jail on a regular basis officials for wrongdoings. I'm still waiting Lebanon or Syria to name a few to have the same transparency and high moral standards.

Thank you Pat[Fr]. Yes, from his comfortable intellectual safety up in the US Rockies, IraChernus is in greatease to criticize & find words to escalate a conflict far from him. He doesn't write about much else, this is a surefire topic to get attention. & so it goes for the mean people of this world who like to make matters worse: a pacifist he certainly is not with research taken to use the strongest & most violent words towards Israel, & so soft towards everyone else. This is not study, this is personal. Having said that, it certainly does not make Israel right in everything she does.

tired of the arabs? give up arab oil!

06/20/2010:Turk PM vows "Kurds will drown in their own blood" of Kurd rebels who attacked & killed 12 Turk soldiers at outpost.." Advice does IChernus now have for the oh-so-peaceful-flotilla-bunch? Maybe their kindheartedness should be towards their Kurd Neighbors, no??

What is the point of inviting comments when your damned SpamFilter stops them? I have just made a comment on this article but it has again been stopped and says it is a duplicate. IT IS NOT A DUPLICATE!! If you have it in the Spam box, why don't you print it?

Ira is so right --- but should should include that the Big Lie can only go on by having the control of wealth. No one in a position of influence, such as elected or hired officials, has job security when less than 2% of our population controls the wealth that determines our elections and policy making officials job tenure. The tragedy is that those of us Christians who worked to reduce anti-semitism are now blocked from correcting these faults, and stopping our support of Zionism that is bound to create a worldwide response probably worse than the holocaust.

oh stop, it isn't anti-semitic to criticize israel.

The person that wrote the note to anonymousbeenthere (Mon, 06/21/2010 - 4:11) is as sick as the followers of judaism he supports. His attitude is their attitude, as it is Lucifer Judaism worships, not Mosaic Law.

You are one sick, mentally brain dead loser that should not be allowed to comment on any site, especially one that seeks the truth.

Shouldn't God's Chosen People act as if they knew the kind of behavior that self-selected title demands? Shouldn't the People whose "Never Again" mantra is used to raise billions of dollars in support of incarceration and annihilation of another People begin to repent and return to God? And shouldn't the leaders of the United States turn off the welfare spigot in a gesture of hard love for our Israeli friends?

It's now June 25th and I've just read a highly informative article in The Nation about the BDS movement. Many different opinions are expressed in the article by lots of American Jews who differ widely on the subject. Some say military aid to Israel should be stopped from the USA. Some advocate cultural boycott, tho' I can't see where that would be anything but counterproductive. One idea remains clear: all us little people (I'm American but not Jewish) hate feeling helpless. Some propose good ideas, some bad; the Oligarchy who has even Israel by the throat will never allow solutions that interfere with their wealth, Jewish, Arab or Pottsylvanian! Average Arabs, average Israelis, average Americans seemed burdened with solving an insolvable problem, yet are prevented by the Greedy/Wealthy of the world.